Milk Debate

GOT MILK? A DEBATE WITH THE ANTI-DAIRY COALITION
"All substances are poisons; there is none which is not a poison. The right dose differentiates a poison and a remedy." —Paracelsus (1493 - 1541) My comment posted on the Anti Dairy Coalition web page (http://www.antidairycoalition.com): I'm having a difficult time understanding how Mr. Cohen, who otherwise seems a thoughtful and informed man, can support this absurd anti-dairy campaign in light of overwhelming medical and scientific evidence that supports the healthfulness of dairy products for most people. The only explanation is either he has a very poor background in science and critical thinking, or more likely, political and/or financial motives. Despite all the propaganda on this page, unless you are lactose-intolerant, dairy products are good for you. Robert Cohen’s response to my post: Dear Stephen, The number one selling book in the history of mankind is the BIBLE. The number two selling book is CHILD CARE by Benjamin Spock, MD. Before his death Dr. Spock edited the last version of his immortal book which now is his legacy. In that final version this man of great vision and wisdom advised that no human should ever drink cow's milk. His milk knowledge was built upon a solid foundation of scientific studies, as is mine. More than three hundred of those references can be found on this site. I appreciate your opening comment and would like to help you overcome your difficult time in understanding why the body fluids of cows are not the perfect food for your body. Just as you instinctively know not to drink dog's milk or pig's milk or even human breast milk, for the substances so contained, I wish to help you transfer that logic to cow's milk. All of your life you have been told that cow's milk is essential for good health. Your parents told you at a time in your life when you knew less than 100 words. Your teacher told you long before you completed your kindergarten education. Today's newspapers and magazines and billboards continuously bombard you with the carefully marketed dairy industry message. Eighty percent of that wonderful protein in milk is CASEIN, the same glue used to hold label to a bottle of beer. Has anybody told you that...or this? There are 59 different bioactive hormones in every sip of milk. Here's a tasty bit of trivia... Sixty percent of America's cows have leukemia and eighty percent have a bacteria called mycobacterium paratuberculosis... You drink body fluids from diseased animals in the name of good health. The sieve used when milk is collected filters the milk which contains essense of pus, mucus, blood, bacteria and feces. Does this sound wholesome to you? If you are the average American, in 1999 you will consume from milk and dairy products the equivalent cholesterol contained in 19,345 slices of bacon. If you are still having "a difficult time understanding..." I would suggest that you begin by reading my weekly columns which are archived at the NOTMILK and ANTIDAIRYCOALITION sites. Regards, Robert Cohen My reply to Robert Cohen: The purpose of the Anti Dairy Coalition is to dissuade consumers from drinking milk. Why? The reasons are many, but I suspect they all rest on a single guiding philosophical principle: animal rights. If people choose not to consume meat and dairy products for moral or ethical reasons, that is fine, but when the Anti Dairy Coalition attempts to bolster this philosophy with emotional appeals based on unfounded nutritional claims, its message loses all credibility. Such erroneous claims deceive the unwitting parent interested in making informed decisions concerning the health of his or her children. I am in no way affiliated with the Dairy Industry. I’m a consumer; a truck driver by profession. I also am one who appreciates the pursuit of truth, which in modern times is best divined through the scientific method. It is this method that has built the body of scientific evidence from which the medical and scientific community has drawn to reach the consensus that milk is indeed good for adults and children over two years of age. I concede that no one absolutely needs milk. And I’m aware that many people are lactose-intolerant, especially American Blacks. But most lactose-intolerant adults can consume about a pint of milk per day without severe symptoms, and of course the problem can be easily remedied by taking Lactaid, or an equivalent. Mr. Cohen cites Dr. Benjamin Spock’s book _Child Care_, wherein Dr. Spock counsels against children over age two drinking milk, and in which children are advised to eat meat only sparingly. Childhood nutritionists, pediatricians, and even Dr. Spock’s own co-author, Dr. Steven Parker, consider this particular approach in Dr. Spock’s otherwise terrific book to be extreme and likely to result in nutritional deficiencies unless it is very carefully planned and executed. The book states that "most green leafy vegetables and beans have a form of calcium that is absorbed as well as or even a bit better than that in milk." But nutrition experts note that calcium-rich vegetables contain substances like oxalates, phytates and other fibers that interfere with calcium absorption in the gut. It would be very difficult for a child to get adequate calcium from vegetables in the quantities needed to support optimal bone growth. Moreover, children having to follow a vegetarian diet free of dairy products could place undue pressures on children, few of whom like to be different from their friends. Let’s face it, to ensure that kids get adequate calcium, how many kids, in lieu of drinking milk, will willingly eat soybeans, broccoli, and kale? Mr. Cohen asserts that humans instinctively know not to drink dog’s milk or pig’s milk, and that this logic should be transferred to the drinking of cow’s milk. I would argue that humans don’t instinctively know to, or know not to eat any particular kind of food, save for mother’s milk. Paleolithic humans’ deciding whether a certain food was safe to eat, especially plants, was a gradual trial-and-error process which, I’m sure, resulted in many sick tummies over the centuries. The common tomato was not deemed to be safe to eat until thousands of years after cow’s milk was. Mr. Cohen describes the protein casein as a glue that affixes labels to beer bottles. Well, school glue and wallpaper paste are made from rice. Ought we now avoid eating rice because it has utility other than as food? If the concern is digestibility, homogenization and pasteurization cause casein to form weaker, looser curds than they normally do. Some people are allergic to casein. That is a good reason to avoid drinking milk. Mr. Cohen claims that “sixty percent of America's cows have leukemia and eighty percent have a bacteria called mycobacterium paratuberculosis.” First, these statistics are plain wrong. Second, there is no evidence that the Bovine Leukemic virus is a threat to the health of the milk drinker. Mycobacterium paratuberculosis is killed by pasteurization. Only drinkers of raw milk are at risk. I urge readers of the Anti Dairy Coalition web page to approach it with a healthy dose of skeptic It is an agenda-driven, cult-like group that has skirted a large body of sound scientific and medical evidence, and trotted out a specious array of nutritional misinformation and alarmist propaganda. Robert Cohen’s reply: Dear Mr. Daniels, This is your second post in four days. The first contained just a few sentences. This one is over 500 words and includes many factual debates and philosophical discussions. A response to each of your points would fill pages. However, there is no way to do justice to you or to my readers by answering your post in its entirety. It would be bulky and burdensome to read. I invite you to re-submit as many points as you wish, one question or comment at a time, please. I would like to address your first major comment which includes an assumption that the ANTIDAIRY Coalition (ADC) began out of compassion to animals. While we in the ADC support animal rights issues, we prefer to say that we began because of ourcompassion to people. We care about your digestion and your circulatory system and your bones and the cancers and diseases and allergins which invade your body. By discontinuing all milk and dairy products you will allow your body to digest foods better. You will eliminate dangerous animal fats and cholesterol. You will not receive large daily doses of powerful growth hormones, one of which (IGF-I) has been identified as the key factor in the growth and proliferation of human cancers. We care very much about animals but the man and woman and child comes first. We love animals and many in our coalition refuse to eat anything with a face, myself included. However, our primary passion is a compassion for humans. Regards, Robert Cohen A reply from an anti-milk supporter, Dave Rietz: The purpose of the Anti Dairy Coalition is to dissuade consumers from drinking milk. Why? All the answers are one either www.notmilk.com and/or www.antidairycoalition.com For a quicky lesson, though... I have taken the time to develop what follows: ****** MILK (Yes... mother natures "perfect food" ... for a calf!) For more info go to http://www.notmilk.com and http://www.antidairycoalition.com Diabetics please read http://www.antidairycoalition.com/011099.html Here is a mini-lesson on milk. Facts: 1cc of commercial cow's milk is allowed to have up to 750,000 pus cells and 20,000 live bacteria... before it is kept off the market. 1 liter = 1000cc = 750,000,000 pus cells ~ 20,000,000 bacteria 1 tsp = 4.928922cc 3,696,691 pus cells ~ 60,000 bacteria 1 tbls= 14.78676cc 11,090,070 pus cells 1 oz = 29.57cc 22,177,500 pus cells 1 cup = 236.5882cc 177,441,150 pus cells ~ 4,731,600 bacteria 24 oz (3 glasses) 532,323,450 pus cells ~ 14,220,000 bacteria 1 quart = 946.3529cc 709,764,675 pus cells ~ 18,920,000 bacteria 1 gallon= 3785.412cc 2,839,059,000 pus cells ~ 75,708,000 bacteria Now... milk also has 59 bioactive hormones (perhaps the worst is insulin-like growth factor one [IGF-1]... which is identical between cows and humans, and extra amounts in our bodies might be thought of as cancer "fuel cells"), up to 52 residual antibiotics (and they only test for a few), allergens, blood, feces and the above. Check out http://www.notmilk.com for particulars... and http://www.antidairycoalition.com for lots of additional proof. Calcium? Where do the COWS get it? Yes... from greens! The calcium in cows milk is basically useless (those nations with the highest amount of milk/dairy consumption have the highest rates of osteoporosis... to go along with high rates of heart disease and other fat/allergen related diseases). MILK: 87% of milk is water. 80% of the protein in milk is casein... better used as a glue for furniture or to fix labels on beer bottles.. This protein may, in fact, LEACH calcium from the person you uses milk and dairy... which would help to explain the high rate of US osteoporosis. IGF-1 is a normal part of ALL milk... the newborn is SUPPOSED to grow quickly! What makes the 40% of obese American consumers think they need MORE growth? They don't think anything about it because they are not told about it. Monsanto's Posilac creates additional IGF-1 in milk, up to twice as much per 12 ounce glass. Only twice as much (of a powerful growth hormone)? OK... try out some math. It takes TEN pounds of milk to make one pound of cheese. It takes twenty-one pounds of milk to make one pound of butter. Now...that means that each slice of cheese from BGH treated milk has 20 times as much of this growth factor... and each pat of butter has 42 times as much as a simple 12 ounce glass of milk. Pasteurization does NOT destroy IGF-1. If that process was truly effective, it would not have to be repeated several times before the milk gets to consumers. Where was this massive "milk is a must" before refrigeration, pasteurization and mass transportation? Back when cows gave only 1-4 quarts a day (while lactating) it was made into BUTTER! Now that those same cows have been tweaked and shot-up with Posilac to produce 50 or more quarts a day... all year long... it is suddenly (after many thousands of years) a daily "staple". NOT! MILK: What a surprise! In a short sentence, Stehpen, cow's milk is very unhealthy and just the opposite of what THEY tell us it is. Regards... Dave Rietz My response to Dave Rietz: << In a short sentence, Stehpen, cow's milk is very unhealthy and just the opposite of what THEY tell us it is. >> My reply to dave Rietz: Mr. Rietz, Thanks for taking the time and effort to respond to my comment on the AntiDairyCoalition Page. I'm not sure what you mean by "what THEY tell us it is." I don't see the issue as US vs. THEM. When you polarize issues into US vs. THEM camps this suggests to me that you are prone to clinging to dogma, rather than examining each facet of the issue individually, disinterestedly, and objectively. When you adopt this sort of attitude, you are inclined to rather religiously accept erroneous information uncritically. You will notice this is exactly what I have NOT done in my post. I have conceded that for those who are morally opposed to meat and dairy, eschewing them is quite fine. The same goes for those who are allergic to dairy products. I also pointed out, FACTUALLY, the errors in Robert Cohen's arguments in response to my post. I took the time to consult the literature in peer-reviewed journals AND I presented Mr. Cohen’s arguments to pediatritions and nutritionists who took the time to point out the errors in these arguments. Robert Cohen's web page is rife with errors of fact marshalled to further an agenda. I've read many of the endorsements on his comments page, and I must say I find them laughable. The people who have made these endorsements are like sheep in a flock following the shepard. When you turn a philosophy into a religion, that's just what you get. When I get the time, I'll respond to the blizzard of "facts" you provided me. I hope, however, that you will try to put aside your prejudices and examine my responses with at least a modicum of open-mindedness. Regards, Stephen Daniels Dave Rietz replies: ><< In a short sentence, Stehpen, cow's milk is very unhealthy and just the > opposite of what THEY tell us it is. >> >Thanks for taking the time and effort to respond to my comment on the >AntiDairyCoalition Page. I'm not sure what you mean by "what THEY tell us it >is." Gee... that should be the most obvious... Dairy Commission/folks ===> government ===> media ====> doctors ====> mom! The long established trail (since about the 30's when pasteurization, refrigeration and mass transpiration made it possible to get it to most customers... before it turned rotten!). How are you going to negate the FDA's allowed levels? How are you going to refute the New York Times and separate Consumers Union findings of up to 52 residual antibiotics? How are you going to deny 59 hormones? How are you going to deny that IGF-1 is a very powerful growth factor? How are you going to prove that the stomach destroys all the stuff YOU folks insist doesn't get to the gut... but that we KNOW does, because the growth factors DO work! The mothers immunization goodies DO work. Check the ingredients of milk from various critters and you will find they are all different. Guess why. Again... that soy milk does not have 59 hormones, allergens, blood, pus, feces, and other baggage such as casein... an excellent glue. Herbicides/pesticides (being equal) can be worked on... and the first order of business is to get rid of Monsanto's genetically engineered plants that are designed to withstand a 100 times the amount that kills everything else in the vicinity. Guess where all that extra "Roundup" herbicide ends up! (Hint: same place as Monsanto's DDT, PCB's, dioxin's, and other poisonous crap). Save yourself the wasted time and effort ... and spend it with your family. :-) *** MILK: THE DEADLY POISON, by Robert Cohen *** TOLL FREE 888-NOT-MILK -or- http://www.NOTMILK.com Each sip contains bacteria, virus, cholesterol, fat, antibiotics, insecticides, blood, pus, allergenic bovine proteins and powerful growth hormones.(A MUST read book!) My response to Dave Rietz: Mr. Rietz, I’m dismayed that as a seemingly intelligent person, you have chosen to forfeit your capacity to think for yourself, and you have resorted to parroting the nonsensical tripe found on Ringmaster Robert Cohen’s web page. I’m not sure if it’s worth my time to address your response when, playing the role of Mr. Cohen's head toady, all you do is cut and paste mindless twaddle from his daffy site. But what the bugger, I’ve got a few minutes. Regarding your response to my e-mail: allow me first to correct your grossly ill-conceived “trail”: Myth: “Dairy Commission/folks ===> government ===> media ====> doctors ====> mom!” Reality:** Governmental, private, and university sponsored scientific research ===> Peer-reviewed scientific journals ===> Doctors, Popular media, Dairy Commission, PR firms ===> mom Now let’s take a look at the subtitle of Mr. Cohen’s book: “MILK: THE DEADLY POISON, by Robert Cohen. Each sip contains bacteria, virus, cholesterol, fat, antibiotics, insecticides, blood, pus, allergenic bovine proteins and powerful growth hormones.” Let’s assume that Mr. Cohen’s list of ingredients in each sip of milk is factual. The question is, given this hypothetical in the minute quantities that they occur in milk, DOES IT MATTER? This is where animal rights activists' fear-mongering and logic go helter-skelter. It is a principle of toxicology, Paracelsus’s famous dictum, that “only the dose makes the poison.” Those words should guide us all, individuals, risk assessors, and regulators alike, as we assess the risks of any substance we find in our food. Take the diet of vegens: Plants. Plants seem harmless enough; after all, if they weren’t, the ultra health-conscious vegens would surely disdain them. But, wait! It turns out that maybe plants are not nearly as innocuous as we thought! Plants are brimming with pesticides. Not man-made pesticides -- natural pesticides. Sounds like an oxymoron, doesn’t it. I assure you it’s no oxymoron. Plants, having co-evolved over millions of years with their herbivorous enemies, have evolved an impressive arsenal of natural pesticides with which to withstand attack. Human dietary intake of nature's pesticides is about 10,000 times higher than human intake of synthetic pesticides that are rodent carcinogens. Here’s a laundry list of just a few of these noxious chemicals that plants manufacture to keep us plant eaters at bay: NATURALLY OCCURRING MUTAGENS and CARCINOGENS FOUND in PLANT FOODS and BEVERAGES: ACETALDEHYDE (apples, tomatoes) mutagen and potent rodent carcinogen AFLATOXIN (nuts) mutagen and potent animal carcinogen; also a human carcinogen ALLYL ISOTHIOCYANATE (arugula, broccoli, mustard) mutagen and rodent carcinogen ANILINE (carrots) rodent carcinogen BENZALDEHYDE (apples, coffee, tomatoes) rodent carcinogen BENZENE (coffee) rodent carcinogen BENZO(A)PYRENE (bread, coffee, pumpkin pie, rolls, tea) mutagen and rodent carcinogen BENZOFURAN (coffee) rodent carcinogen BENZYL ACETATE (jasmine tea) rodent carcinogen CAFFEIC ACID (apples, carrots, celery, coffee, pears, grapes, lettuce, mangos, potatoes) rodent carcinogen CATECHOL (coffee) rodent carcinogen 1,2,5,6-DIBENZ(A)ANTHRACENE (coffee) rodent carcinogen ESTRAGOLE (apples, basil) rodent carcinogen ETHYL ALCOHOL (bread, red wine, rolls, tomatoes) rodent and human carcinogen ETHYL BENZENE (coffee) rodent carcinogen ETHYL CARBAMATE (bread, rolls, red wine) mutagen and rodent carcinogen FURAN AND FURAN DERIVATIVES (bread, onions, celery, mushrooms, sweet potatoes, rolls, cranberry sauce, coffee) many are mutagens FURFURAL (bread, coffee, nuts, rolls, sweet potatoes) furan derivative and rodent carcinogen HYDRAZINES (mushrooms) mutagens and rodent carcinogens HYDROGEN PEROXIDE (coffee, tomatoes) mutagen and rodent carcinogen HYDROQUINONE (coffee, black pepper, mango) rodent carcinogen METHYLGLYOXAL (coffee, red wine) mutagen and rodent carcinogen PSORALENS (celery, parsley) mutagens; rodent and human carcinogens QUERCETIN GLYCOSIDES (apples, onions, tea, tomatoes) mutagens and rodent carcinogens SAFROLE (nutmeg in apple and pumpkin pies, black pepper) rodent carcinogen SYMPHYTINE (comfrey tea) rodent carcinogen . Whew! Odd that vegetarians subsisting on of the above cocktail of poisons that our streets aren't littered with their rotting corpses? But they ain't! Why's that? For the same reason that the streets aren’t littered with the corpses of meat eaters. THE DOSE MAKES THE POISON. The fact remains that the American food supply is by far the best in the world—and the best it has been in the history of this country. It is the best not only in terms of its abundance and variety, but it's also the best in terms of its safety. And that includes milk. Regards, Stephen Daniels Note: It has now been over a year since my last response, and I haven't heard a peep out of the Anti Dairy bunkum peddlers since. When you present an agenda-driven group with the facts, they will eventually come around or, more likely, they will turn a blind eye and concentrate on peddling their codswallup elsewhere, as they did here.

GOT MILK?

A DEBATE WITH THE
ANTI-DAIRY COALITION

"All substances are poisons; there is none which is not a poison.
The right dose differentiates a poison and a remedy."

—Paracelsus (1493 - 1541)

My comment posted on the Anti Dairy Coalition web page (http://www.antidairycoalition.com):

I'm having a difficult time understanding how Mr. Cohen, who otherwise seems a thoughtful and informed man, can support this absurd anti-dairy campaign in light of overwhelming medical and scientific evidence that supports the healthfulness of dairy products for most people. The only explanation is either he has a very poor background in science and critical thinking, or more likely, political and/or financial motives. Despite all the propaganda on this page, unless you are lactose-intolerant, dairy products are good for you.

Robert Cohen’s response to my post:

Dear Stephen, The number one selling book in the history of mankind is the BIBLE. The number two selling book is CHILD CARE by Benjamin Spock, MD. Before his death Dr. Spock edited the last version of his immortal book which now is his legacy. In that final version this man of great vision and wisdom advised that no human should ever drink cow's milk. His milk knowledge was built upon a solid foundation of scientific studies, as is mine. More than three hundred of those references can be found on this site. I appreciate your opening comment and would like to help you overcome your difficult time in understanding why the body fluids of cows are not the perfect food for your body. Just as you instinctively know not to drink dog's milk or pig's milk or even human breast milk, for the substances so contained, I wish to help you transfer that logic to cow's milk.

All of your life you have been told that cow's milk is essential for good health. Your parents told you at a time in your life when you knew less than 100 words. Your teacher told you long before you completed your kindergarten education. Today's newspapers and magazines and billboards continuously bombard you with the carefully marketed dairy industry message.

Eighty percent of that wonderful protein in milk is CASEIN, the same glue used to hold label to a bottle of beer. Has anybody told you that...or this? There are 59 different bioactive hormones in every sip of milk. Here's a tasty bit of trivia... Sixty percent of America's cows have leukemia and eighty percent have a bacteria called mycobacterium paratuberculosis... You drink body fluids from diseased animals in the name of good health. The sieve used when milk is collected filters the milk which contains essense of pus, mucus, blood, bacteria and feces. Does this sound wholesome to you? If you are the average American, in 1999 you will consume from milk and dairy products the equivalent cholesterol contained in 19,345 slices of bacon.

If you are still having "a difficult time understanding..." I would suggest that you begin by reading my weekly columns which are archived at the NOTMILK and ANTIDAIRYCOALITION sites. Regards,

Robert Cohen

My reply to Robert Cohen:

The purpose of the Anti Dairy Coalition is to dissuade consumers from drinking milk. Why? The reasons are many, but I suspect they all rest on a single guiding philosophical principle: animal rights. If people choose not to consume meat and dairy products for moral or ethical reasons, that is fine, but when the Anti Dairy Coalition attempts to bolster this philosophy with emotional appeals based on unfounded nutritional claims, its message loses all credibility. Such erroneous claims deceive the unwitting parent interested in making informed decisions concerning the health of his or her children.

I am in no way affiliated with the Dairy Industry. I’m a consumer; a truck driver by profession. I also am one who appreciates the pursuit of truth, which in modern times is best divined through the scientific method. It is this method that has built the body of scientific evidence from which the medical and scientific community has drawn to reach the consensus that milk is indeed good for adults and children over two years of age.

I concede that no one absolutely needs milk. And I’m aware that many people are lactose-intolerant, especially American Blacks. But most lactose-intolerant adults can consume about a pint of milk per day without severe symptoms, and of course the problem can be easily remedied by taking Lactaid, or an equivalent.

Mr. Cohen cites Dr. Benjamin Spock’s book _Child Care_, wherein Dr. Spock counsels against children over age two drinking milk, and in which children are advised to eat meat only sparingly. Childhood nutritionists, pediatricians, and even Dr. Spock’s own co-author, Dr. Steven Parker, consider this particular approach in Dr. Spock’s otherwise terrific book to be extreme and likely to result in nutritional deficiencies unless it is very carefully planned and executed.

The book states that "most green leafy vegetables and beans have a form of calcium that is absorbed as well as or even a bit better than that in milk." But nutrition experts note that calcium-rich vegetables contain substances like oxalates, phytates and other fibers that interfere with calcium absorption in the gut. It would be very difficult for a child to get adequate calcium from vegetables in the quantities needed to support optimal bone growth. Moreover, children having to follow a vegetarian diet free of dairy products could place undue pressures on children, few of whom like to be different from their friends. Let’s face it, to ensure that kids get adequate calcium, how many kids, in lieu of drinking milk, will willingly eat soybeans, broccoli, and kale?

Mr. Cohen asserts that humans instinctively know not to drink dog’s milk or pig’s milk, and that this logic should be transferred to the drinking of cow’s milk. I would argue that humans don’t instinctively know to, or know not to eat any particular kind of food, save for mother’s milk. Paleolithic humans’ deciding whether a certain food was safe to eat, especially plants, was a gradual trial-and-error process which, I’m sure, resulted in many sick tummies over the centuries. The common tomato was not deemed to be safe to eat until thousands of years after cow’s milk was.

Mr. Cohen describes the protein casein as a glue that affixes labels to beer bottles. Well, school glue and wallpaper paste are made from rice. Ought we now avoid eating rice because it has utility other than as food? If the concern is digestibility, homogenization and pasteurization cause casein to form weaker, looser curds than they normally do. Some people are allergic to casein. That is a good reason to avoid drinking milk. Mr. Cohen claims that “sixty percent of America's cows have leukemia and eighty percent have a bacteria called mycobacterium paratuberculosis.” First, these statistics are plain wrong. Second, there is no evidence that the Bovine Leukemic virus is a threat to the health of the milk drinker. Mycobacterium paratuberculosis is killed by pasteurization. Only drinkers of raw milk are at risk.

I urge readers of the Anti Dairy Coalition web page to approach it with a healthy dose of skeptic It is an agenda-driven, cult-like group that has skirted a large body of sound scientific and medical evidence, and trotted out a specious array of nutritional misinformation and alarmist propaganda.

Robert Cohen’s reply:

Dear Mr. Daniels,

This is your second post in four days. The first contained just a few sentences. This one is over 500 words and includes many factual debates and philosophical discussions. A response to each of your points would fill pages. However, there is no way to do justice to you or to my readers by answering your post in its entirety. It would be bulky and burdensome to read. I invite you to re-submit as many points as you wish, one question or comment at a time, please. I would like to address your first major comment which includes an assumption that the ANTIDAIRY Coalition (ADC) began out of compassion to animals. While we in the ADC support animal rights issues, we prefer to say that we began because of ourcompassion to people. We care about your digestion and your circulatory system and your bones and the cancers and diseases and allergins which invade your body. By discontinuing all milk and dairy products you will allow your body to digest foods better. You will eliminate dangerous animal fats and cholesterol. You will not receive large daily doses of powerful growth hormones, one of which (IGF-I) has been identified as the key factor in the growth and proliferation of human cancers. We care very much about animals but the man and woman and child comes first. We love animals and many in our coalition refuse to eat anything with a face, myself included. However, our primary passion is a compassion for humans.

Regards,

Robert Cohen

A reply from an anti-milk supporter, Dave Rietz:

The purpose of the Anti Dairy Coalition is to dissuade consumers from drinking milk. Why? All the answers are one either www.notmilk.com and/or www.antidairycoalition.com For a quicky lesson, though... I have taken the time to develop what follows: ******** MILK (Yes... mother natures "perfect food" ... for a calf!)

For more info go to http://www.notmilk.com and http://www.antidairycoalition.com Diabetics please read http://www.antidairycoalition.com/011099.html Here is a mini-lesson on milk.

Facts: 1cc of commercial cow's milk is allowed to have up to 750,000 pus cells and 20,000 live bacteria... before it is kept off the market.

1 liter = 1000cc = 750,000,000 pus cells ~ 20,000,000 bacteria

1 tsp = 4.928922cc 3,696,691 pus cells ~ 60,000 bacteria

1 tbls= 14.78676cc 11,090,070 pus cells

1 oz = 29.57cc 22,177,500 pus cells

1 cup = 236.5882cc 177,441,150 pus cells ~ 4,731,600 bacteria 24 oz (3 glasses) 532,323,450 pus cells ~ 14,220,000 bacteria

1 quart = 946.3529cc 709,764,675 pus cells ~ 18,920,000 bacteria

1 gallon= 3785.412cc 2,839,059,000 pus cells ~ 75,708,000 bacteria

Now... milk also has 59 bioactive hormones (perhaps the worst is insulin-like growth factor one [IGF-1]... which is identical between cows and humans, and extra amounts in our bodies might be thought of as cancer "fuel cells"), up to 52 residual antibiotics (and they only test for a few), allergens, blood, feces and the above. Check out http://www.notmilk.com for particulars... and http://www.antidairycoalition.com for lots of additional proof. Calcium? Where do the COWS get it? Yes... from greens! The calcium in cows milk is basically useless (those nations with the highest amount of milk/dairy consumption have the highest rates of osteoporosis... to go along with high rates of heart disease and other fat/allergen related diseases). MILK: 87% of milk is water. 80% of the protein in milk is casein... better used as a glue for furniture or to fix labels on beer bottles.. This protein may, in fact, LEACH calcium from the person you uses milk and dairy... which would help to explain the high rate of US osteoporosis. IGF-1 is a normal part of ALL milk... the newborn is SUPPOSED to grow quickly! What makes the 40% of obese American consumers think they need MORE growth? They don't think anything about it because they are not told about it. Monsanto's Posilac creates additional IGF-1 in milk, up to twice as much per 12 ounce glass. Only twice as much (of a powerful growth hormone)? OK... try out some math. It takes TEN pounds of milk to make one pound of cheese. It takes twenty-one pounds of milk to make one pound of butter. Now...that means that each slice of cheese from BGH treated milk has 20 times as much of this growth factor... and each pat of butter has 42 times as much as a simple 12 ounce glass of milk. Pasteurization does NOT destroy IGF-1. If that process was truly effective, it would not have to be repeated several times before the milk gets to consumers. Where was this massive "milk is a must" before refrigeration, pasteurization and mass transportation? Back when cows gave only 1-4 quarts a day (while lactating) it was made into BUTTER! Now that those same cows have been tweaked and shot-up with Posilac to produce 50 or more quarts a day... all year long... it is suddenly (after many thousands of years) a daily "staple". NOT! MILK: What a surprise! In a short sentence, Stehpen, cow's milk is very unhealthy and just the opposite of what THEY tell us it is. Regards... Dave Rietz My response to Dave Rietz: << In a short sentence, Stehpen, cow's milk is very unhealthy and just the opposite of what THEY tell us it is. >>

My reply to dave Rietz:

Mr. Rietz,

Thanks for taking the time and effort to respond to my comment on the AntiDairyCoalition Page. I'm not sure what you mean by "what THEY tell us it is." I don't see the issue as US vs. THEM. When you polarize issues into US vs. THEM camps this suggests to me that you are prone to clinging to dogma, rather than examining each facet of the issue individually, disinterestedly, and objectively. When you adopt this sort of attitude, you are inclined to rather religiously accept erroneous information uncritically.

You will notice this is exactly what I have NOT done in my post. I have conceded that for those who are morally opposed to meat and dairy, eschewing them is quite fine. The same goes for those who are allergic to dairy products. I also pointed out, FACTUALLY, the errors in Robert Cohen's arguments in response to my post. I took the time to consult the literature in peer-reviewed journals AND I presented Mr. Cohen’s arguments to pediatritions and nutritionists who took the time to point out the errors in these arguments.

Robert Cohen's web page is rife with errors of fact marshalled to further an agenda. I've read many of the endorsements on his comments page, and I must say I find them laughable. The people who have made these endorsements are like sheep in a flock following the shepard. When you turn a philosophy into a religion, that's just what you get.

When I get the time, I'll respond to the blizzard of "facts" you provided me. I hope, however, that you will try to put aside your prejudices and examine my responses with at least a modicum of open-mindedness.

Regards,

Stephen Daniels

Dave Rietz replies:

><< In a short sentence, Stehpen, cow's milk is very unhealthy and just the > opposite of what THEY tell us it is. >> >Thanks for taking the time and effort to respond to my comment on the >AntiDairyCoalition Page. I'm not sure what you mean by "what THEY tell us it >is."
Gee... that should be the most obvious...
Dairy Commission/folks ===> government ===> media ====> doctors ====> mom!
The long established trail (since about the 30's when pasteurization, refrigeration and mass transpiration made it possible to get it to most customers... before it turned rotten!).

How are you going to negate the FDA's allowed levels?

How are you going to refute the New York Times and separate Consumers Union findings of up to 52 residual antibiotics?

How are you going to deny 59 hormones?

How are you going to deny that IGF-1 is a very powerful growth factor?

How are you going to prove that the stomach destroys all the stuff YOU folks insist doesn't get to the gut... but that we KNOW does, because the growth factors DO work! The mothers immunization goodies DO work.
Check the ingredients of milk from various critters and you will find they are all different. Guess why.
Again... that soy milk does not have 59 hormones, allergens, blood, pus, feces, and other baggage such as casein... an excellent glue. Herbicides/pesticides (being equal) can be worked on... and the first order of business is to get rid of Monsanto's genetically engineered plants that are designed to withstand a 100 times the amount that kills everything else in the vicinity. Guess where all that extra "Roundup" herbicide ends up! (Hint: same place as Monsanto's DDT, PCB's, dioxin's, and other poisonous crap).

Save yourself the wasted time and effort ... and spend it with your family.
:-)
******* MILK: THE DEADLY POISON, by Robert Cohen *******
TOLL FREE 888-NOT-MILK -or- http://www.NOTMILK.com
Each sip contains bacteria, virus, cholesterol, fat,
antibiotics, insecticides, blood, pus, allergenic bovine
proteins and powerful growth hormones.(A MUST read book!)

My response to Dave Rietz:

Mr. Rietz,

I’m dismayed that as a seemingly intelligent person, you have chosen to forfeit your capacity to think for yourself, and you have resorted to parroting the nonsensical tripe found on Ringmaster Robert Cohen’s web page. I’m not sure if it’s worth my time to address your response when, playing the role of Mr. Cohen's head toady, all you do is cut and paste mindless twaddle from his daffy site. But what the bugger, I’ve got a few minutes.

Regarding your response to my e-mail: allow me first to correct your grossly ill-conceived “trail”:

Myth:

“Dairy Commission/folks ===> government ===> media ====> doctors ====> mom!”

Reality:

Governmental, private, and university sponsored scientific research ===> Peer-reviewed scientific journals ===> Doctors, Popular media, Dairy Commission, PR firms ===> mom

Now let’s take a look at the subtitle of Mr. Cohen’s book:

“MILK: THE DEADLY POISON, by Robert Cohen. Each sip contains bacteria, virus, cholesterol, fat, antibiotics, insecticides, blood, pus, allergenic bovine proteins and powerful growth hormones.”

Let’s assume that Mr. Cohen’s list of ingredients in each sip of milk is factual. The question is, given this hypothetical in the minute quantities that they occur in milk, DOES IT MATTER?

This is where animal rights activists' fear-mongering and logic go helter-skelter. It is a principle of toxicology, Paracelsus’s famous dictum, that “only the dose makes the poison.” Those words should guide us all, individuals, risk assessors, and regulators alike, as we assess the risks of any substance we find in our food. Take the diet of vegens: Plants. Plants seem harmless enough; after all, if they weren’t, the ultra health-conscious vegens would surely disdain them.

But, wait! It turns out that maybe plants are not nearly as innocuous as we thought!

Plants are brimming with pesticides. Not man-made pesticides -- natural pesticides. Sounds like an oxymoron, doesn’t it. I assure you it’s no oxymoron. Plants, having co-evolved over millions of years with their herbivorous enemies, have evolved an impressive arsenal of natural pesticides with which to withstand attack. Human dietary intake of nature's pesticides is about 10,000 times higher than human intake of synthetic pesticides that are rodent carcinogens. Here’s a laundry list of just a few of these noxious chemicals that plants manufacture to keep us plant eaters at bay:

NATURALLY OCCURRING MUTAGENS and CARCINOGENS
FOUND in PLANT FOODS and BEVERAGES:

ACETALDEHYDE (apples, tomatoes) mutagen and potent rodent carcinogen

AFLATOXIN (nuts) mutagen and potent animal carcinogen; also a human carcinogen

ALLYL ISOTHIOCYANATE (arugula, broccoli, mustard) mutagen and rodent carcinogen

ANILINE (carrots)
rodent carcinogen

BENZALDEHYDE (apples, coffee, tomatoes)
rodent carcinogen

BENZENE (coffee)
rodent carcinogen

BENZO(A)PYRENE (bread, coffee, pumpkin pie, rolls, tea)
mutagen and rodent carcinogen
BENZOFURAN (coffee)
rodent carcinogen

BENZYL ACETATE (jasmine tea)
rodent carcinogen

CAFFEIC ACID (apples, carrots, celery, coffee, pears, grapes, lettuce, mangos, potatoes) rodent carcinogen

CATECHOL (coffee)
rodent carcinogen

1,2,5,6-DIBENZ(A)ANTHRACENE (coffee)
rodent carcinogen

ESTRAGOLE (apples, basil)
rodent carcinogen

ETHYL ALCOHOL (bread, red wine, rolls, tomatoes)
rodent and human carcinogen

ETHYL BENZENE (coffee)
rodent carcinogen

ETHYL CARBAMATE (bread, rolls, red wine)
mutagen and rodent carcinogen

FURAN AND FURAN DERIVATIVES
(bread, onions, celery, mushrooms, sweet potatoes, rolls, cranberry sauce, coffee)
many are mutagens

FURFURAL
(bread, coffee, nuts, rolls, sweet potatoes)
furan derivative and rodent carcinogen

HYDRAZINES (mushrooms)
mutagens and rodent carcinogens

HYDROGEN PEROXIDE (coffee, tomatoes)
mutagen and rodent carcinogen

HYDROQUINONE (coffee, black pepper, mango)
rodent carcinogen

METHYLGLYOXAL (coffee, red wine)
mutagen and rodent carcinogen

PSORALENS (celery, parsley)
mutagens; rodent and human carcinogens

QUERCETIN GLYCOSIDES (apples, onions, tea, tomatoes)
mutagens and rodent carcinogens

SAFROLE (nutmeg in apple and pumpkin pies, black pepper)
rodent carcinogen

SYMPHYTINE (comfrey tea)
rodent carcinogen

.

Whew! Odd that vegetarians subsisting on of the above cocktail of poisons that our streets aren't littered with their rotting corpses?

But they ain't! Why's that?

For the same reason that the streets aren’t littered with the corpses of meat eaters.

THE DOSE MAKES THE POISON.

The fact remains that the American food supply is by far the best in the world—and the best it has been in the history of this country. It is the best not only in terms of its abundance and variety, but it's also the best in terms of its safety. And that includes milk.

Regards,

Stephen Daniels

Note: It has now been over a year since my last response, and I haven't heard a peep out of the Anti Dairy bunkum peddlers since. When you present an agenda-driven group with the facts, they will eventually come around or, more likely, they will turn a blind eye and concentrate on peddling their codswallup elsewhere, as they did here.

. North Country